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    SubjectRe: A desktop environment[1] kernel wishlist
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    On Mon, 2014-10-27 at 16:59 -0400, Zygo Blaxell wrote:
    > On Mon, Oct 27, 2014 at 03:28:04PM +0100, Bastien Nocera wrote:
    > > On Wed, 2014-10-22 at 13:04 -0400, Zygo Blaxell wrote:
    > > > On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 08:09:38PM +0200, Bastien Nocera wrote:
    > > > > On Tue, 2014-10-21 at 11:00 -0700, John Stultz wrote:
    > > > > > On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 10:14 AM, Bastien Nocera <hadess@hadess.net> wrote:
    > > > > > >> As for: 'Export of "wake reason" when the system wakes up (rtc alarm,
    > > > > > >> lid open, etc.) and wakealarm (/sys/class/rtc/foo/wakealarm)
    > > > > > >> documentation'
    > > > > > >>
    > > > > > >> Can you expand more on the rational for the need here? Is this for UI
    > > > > > >> for power debugging, or something else?
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > No, it would be used for automating backups, or implementing
    > > > > > > suspend->hibernation transitions. For example, right before the machine
    > > > > > > suspends, I would schedule it to wake up in a hour. If I get woken up by
    > > > > > > the rtc alarm (and not by the user through a lid open), I might:
    > > > > > > - check that I'm plugged into the AC, it's night, and in the vicinity of
    > > > > > > the server that handles my backups and so backup the system.
    > > > > > > - check whether the battery is low, and hibernate the machine (if it
    > > > > > > supports it, obviously).
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > We cannot do that if we can't make out whether the wake-up came from a
    > > > > > > user action, or the alarm we set.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > I suspect wakeup type reporting is maybe not the best way to go about
    > > > > > this, since there may be a number of causes for wakeups and they can
    > > > > > arrive closely together in different orders, which can result in
    > > > > > races.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > For instance, if the machine suspends, and sets an alarm to be woken
    > > > > > up at midnight to do a backup, if the user resumes their laptop at
    > > > > > 11:59:59, should the backup still proceed at midnight?
    > > > >
    > > > > No. And I would expect that we would get a wake up type of "power
    > > > > button" or "lid open" in this case.
    > > >
    > > > I have been using something like this for the last 7 years or so.
    > > > The relevant inputs are:
    > > >
    > > > 1. is the user present (is there recent input on HID devices,
    > > > keyboard/mouse, but ignore devices like light sensors, 3D
    > > > accelerometers, and ACPI virtual keys)?
    > >
    > > If the user woke the machine up through the power button, you wouldn't
    > > see that from user-space. You could detect that the lid was opened,
    > > because you have state.
    > >
    > > > 2. which network connection(s) are available to reach the
    > > > backup server?
    > > >
    > > > 3. how much power is available (if on battery, how much run
    > > > time left?)
    > > >
    > > > 4. what is the policy (do backups happen at a specific time
    > > > of day, or whenever they can?)
    > > >
    > > > 5. was a backup completed successfully in the last N hours?
    > > >
    > > > Note the absence of any information about the cause of recent
    > > > suspend/resume activity, or any input from suspend/resume at all.
    > >
    > > How do I tell my environment not to wake the screen up when the machine
    > > was woken up by an alarm I scheduled to launch a backup?
    >
    > Lid closed? Screen off (nobody can see it, it wastes power on battery,
    > and lengthens charge time on AC).
    >
    > Lid open and user input? Screen on.
    >
    > Lid open and user disabled time-based screen power saving? Screen on.
    >
    > These are not symmetrical. To wake up the screen, the screen needs to
    > be visible, and the policy conditions to wake up the screen need to be
    > met. Spontaneously firing up a backlight at full power in a dark room
    > in the middle of the night may not be appreciated by the system owner.

    How do I detect that the screen is visible on a tablet? I could turn on
    the webcam to see if a face is detected ;)

    Maybe the wake-up reason isn't good enough on its own, but how do I know
    which one the possible wake-up reasons was the last one to trigger?



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